Will Wilkinson - Latest Comments in ABJ!

Re: ABJ!

Daniel — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:00:16 -0000

Jefferson was the man. I think we can all agree that slavery was terrible, Jefferson knew this himself. I'm sorry you're so offended but Thomas Jefferson did more for the founding of this country's government than any other single man.

Re: ABJ!

Chris Newman — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:46:43 -0000

Interesting conversation. I just finished Chernow's bio of Hamilton, which I strongly recommend to anyone, but particularly to his vehement detractors. He's a fascinating character who was both amazingly prescient and, from a libertarian perspective, dangerously wrong about important things. I actually think he's an object lesson in how the siren call of statism can attract intelligent, moral people who really do want to do good. The political difference between him and Jefferson can be characterized simply as follows: Jefferson's bete noir was executive tyranny; Hamilton's was mob rule. As libertarians, I think we can agree that either outcome is undesirable, and from there proceed dispassionately to evaluate in a nuanced way the blindspots each man suffered. Demonizing Hamilton and lionizing Jefferson simply doesn't do them justice. In terms of individual character, I actually think it's hard to deny that Hamilton was the more admirable of the two, but he was also undeniably the first best example in our history of the "fatal conceit." But give the man some credit: he was a self made man, and the only one among the major founders (except Franklin) who actually understood and appreciated capitalism. Jefferson wasn't just against a central bank; he was against any bank at all and inveighed against capital finance as nothing more than gambling. The anti-capitalist rhetoric of modern American liberalism starts with him. Yes, Hamilton was far too ready to use central power to set up and fund the institutions he thought America needed to hold its own against the European powers. At least he was coherent and consistent. Jefferson and Madison wanted to do without taxes and standing armies, which is great so long as you have some other way to save the country from war. Instead they instigated conflict with England, and finally got us a war that we were unable to fight. Yes, Hamilton put too much power in the federal government and the executive, but he also (unlike Jefferson) respected the importance of an independent judiciary that could reign it in. Jefferson postured (rightly) against the Sedition Act on constitutional grounds, but had no problem with (indeed, abetted) state courts persecuting Federalist journalists. Meanwhile, Hamilton as a private lawyer is responsible for enshrining the principle that truth is a defense to libel. In short, reality is far more interesting than bad Hamilton good Jefferson, or vice versa. I for one wish the two men had been able to respect and learn from each other. Someone who combined Hamilton's administrative brilliance, practical mind, and understanding of business with Jefferson's wariness of centralized power would have been a great founder indeed.

Re: ABJ!

Micha Ghertner — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:46:05 -0000

Talk about self-reductio...

Re: ABJ!

Bill — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:57:29 -0000

Will, give me some of what you are smoking, I could use an escape from reality. You ask do you really think a central bank is worse than owning other human beings? Well yes I do. because actual slavery was eventually abolished, but the central bank is still arouond and it has made slaves of us all. There is no difference, in fact, the bank is worse because it is slowly bleeding the country to death and no one is seriously talking about getting rid of it.

Re: ABJ!

Stephan Kinsella — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:34:37 -0000

And in a weird twist, we have ultra-PC, Sandefur, who finds racism under any rock and attacks federalists and decentralist as know-nothing neo-confederate yahoos, saying he loves Jefferson: "Jefferson is the person in history I most admire." Despite Jefferson's ownership of slaves and his extreme federalism (e.g. the Kentucky Resolution), which normally calls down the righteous, smug, sanctimonous wrath of PC Sandefur.

Re: ABJ!

wow — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:01:20 -0000

All you people trying to find consistency in historical figures: Jefferson was ALWAYS a libertarian, Hamilton ALWAYS did X...

These arguments really only hold water in the face of ignorance--no one is ever entirely consistent, and if you think so, it is only because you have not yet heard of their inconsistencies.

Good luck trying to find the "universal" Libertarian, or whatever you're after.

Meanwhile, I'll attempt questions that have a better chance of being answered, like whether God exists or not.

Re: ABJ!

macsimcon — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:33:02 -0000

Now hold on a second. Painting Hamilton as an authoritarian who would approve of our malignant government is simply preposterous.

It's true that Hamilton argued for a stronger central government at the Convention, but when he didn't get it, he still argued stridently for ratification anyway. There is just no way that he could have written the Federalist Papers with the Constitution's author had he favored the monarchical form of government his detractors claim he did.

Hamilton didn't want a Bill of Rights; he wanted it clear that by addressing only those rights bestowed upon the Federal government, all other rights not mentioned were given to the states themselves, an argument which could have been made by Jefferson himself.

It's indisputable that Hamilton wanted a stronger central government, but I've found no proof that he wanted what we have today: a federal government which uses the commerce clause to essentially steal rights from the states whenever it sees fit. Hamilton was a strong proponent of Madison's creation, and he made articulate arguments in the Federalist Papers of the virtues of a more balanced system of government.

Re: ABJ!

tom — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:07:31 -0000

Hamilton would love the nation today and Jefferson would hate it. Hamilton would love our intertwined banking and taxation system and its ability to support a jugernaut of a military. He would love our unbelivably large beuracracy and support the tyranny created by the federal reserve. Though Hamilton's ambitions were not to assist the elite his polices were very aristocratic and have lead to the oligarchy in which we reside.
While Jefferson had his flaws and did believe his short comings (most notable slavery) would be ended if not within soon after his time, his fundamental beliefs in the good nature of people, representative government, and the ability of commerce to flourish without government regulation is why he is the best libertarian. Unfortunately one needs to separate Jefferson's actions from his ideals. Though his actions were flawed, he captured a true understanding of Freedom. James Madison is a close second to a patriarch for freedom. Both would be astounded by our nation's national debt and use of fear to supress the people.

Re: ABJ!

blewsdawg Rick Caldwell — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:25:31 -0000

...keep in mind that if he had released his slaves...

Damn laptop.

Re: ABJ!

blewsdawg Rick Caldwell — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:21:36 -0000

Regarding TJ's ownership of slaves, keep in mind that if he had, those very slaves would have been re-enslaved within days. Virginia, North Carolina and Maryland all had laws requiring freed black slaves to leave those states within fifteen days, or be subject to re-enslavement. The northern states, though free, had no shortage of bounty hunters willing to capture a black people and return them to the south. Hamilton himself did so himself a few times. Many of these bounty hunters had no problem capturing legitimately freed slaves under false pretenses, and turning them over to auction houses in the nearest slave state.

By all accounts, if one had to be a slave in Jefferson's time, Monticello was the least objectionable place to be one. Jefferson's alternative was certain re-enslavement of his slaves somewhere that was certain to be worse. Until slavery was abolished, what else was he to do?

Re: ABJ!

Nikhil Bhat — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:09:46 -0000

To those that are horrified that anyone doesn't prostrate before TJ: Most, if not all, of the tired tripe about Hamilton supporting monarchy and some sort of onerous hyper-Keynesian centrally-controlled state comes to us from his political enemies. To be sure, he was no angel; in his habit of being suckered by a friendly face or a damsel in distress (Maria Reynolds), he was dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

But his contributions to public finance (his bond refinancing basically being the only thing keeping the federal government solvent), defense of a central government capable of keeping the US safe in the midst of Democrat-Republican bellicosity, and work with the anti-slavery societies in NYC is too often ignored. Basically, using what popular history knows of him (his infamous duel aside) to judge him is akin to future generations judging Ron Paul by Daily Kos's screeds about the honorable Dr. Paul in the midst of the silly newsletter kerfuffle.

As to his being a neo-con, it's worth noting that it was Jefferson's Democrat-Republicans who were celebrating the bloodbath in revolutionary France and calling for war against England, even though they steadfastly refused to put in place the mechanisms (a strong military and sound public finance) that were necessary to wage war against any European power. They finally got one eight years after Hamilton's death, and it resulted in our ruthless invasion of another nation, and our tiny capital being burnt to the ground. The same contemporary media that demonized Hamilton likes to call this a "victory".

But hey, I understand that giving a pragmatist even a modicum of credit would ruin the fun of idolizing an idealist. So carry on.

Re: ABJ!

Eric Burnside — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:03:08 -0000

Hey Will, I just don't see it man. I don't believe you're being fair at all here. Are you really implying that Jefferson was for the extinction of the Native Americans? Jefferson did more to try and help the natives than any other American President. He convinced some to start building houses and settling on farms, which the Cherokee heeded quite well for one. There's really no comparing the Louisiana Purchase with Hamiltonian central banking nonesense.

Re: ABJ!

Terrorific — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:53:44 -0000

Interesting that you keep avoiding explaining what this "cosmopolitan" thing is all about. I no longer live in the States (I'm from Ohio), so I'd like to see what it means in this context.

Re: ABJ!

Ben Kalafut — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:02:13 -0000

Over at Lew Rockwell dot Com, revenge-theorist/ Hans Prancytime Hoppe protege/faux legal scholar Stephan Kinsella mistakes "Morris" for "Hamilton." It's good for laughs, see http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/...

I wonder what the discourse ethics implications are.

Re: ABJ!

Jim Cote — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:06:19 -0000

I'm uncomfortable with the contrasting of homosexual marriage and incest. Is not the real comparison with the legalization of homosexual activity. The taboos against homosexual activity seem much more varied across cultures and time then are those against incest.

Re: ABJ!

Micha Ghertner — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:32:22 -0000

Wait, we are expected to take DiLorenzo and the Lew Rockwell crowd seriously on the libertarian credentials of Jefferson, the same DiLorenzo who calls John C. Calhoun one of the greatest libertarian philosophers who ever lived?

Re: ABJ!

Will Wilkinson — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:55:41 -0000

Chris, Yes, it's practically inconceivable that one would learn to independently apply one's intellectual and moral judgment instead of slavishly touting pre-selected heroes from a cartoon pantheon.

Re: ABJ!

Alberto Dietz — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:03:29 -0000

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwTKKSvR8 from 2:29 to 3:17 (by Andrew Napolitano, great 4part video)

Re: ABJ!

Chris Baker — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:07:02 -0000

Back in 2000, I wouldn't have believed that a man who had attended David Kelley's seminars could have written something like this. Of course, today, I can believe almost anything that comes from the mouth or the keyboard of an Objectivist.

I haven't read much about Jefferson, but have read plenty of work written by him. Jefferson's dedication to religious freedom and speech were unquestioned. Jefferson was mainly responsible for the outlawing of slavery in the Northwest Territory and wanted to insert a clause in the Declaration condemning George 3 for not suppressing the slave trade.

Hamilton is the patron saint of today's neo-conservatives. He loved reckless spending, corporate welfare, and taxes. He tried to get the US into a war with France in the 1790's, which Adams almost singlehandedly prevented. He also wanted the President and the Senate to be elected for life!

It's too bad Aaron Burr didn't kill him a lot sooner.

Re: ABJ!

David — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:47:34 -0000

Hamilton...Jefferson. Who cares? Ron Paul is current and revelant. The good doctor beats them all.

Re: ABJ!

William — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:34:11 -0000

Then would not the question be a matter of comparative horribleness? If Jefferson was bad for failing to practice what he preached, at minimum his message was correct and at least part of the time his policy actions matched that message (e.g. the Declaration of Independence, fighting Hamilton for free trade, opposing nationalized banking).

But Hamilton was not only a failure in practicing his preached message on slavery. His policies were also horribly statist in almost every category. He openly advocated a strong centralized government, heavy government intervention into the free market, government subsidies of selected "favored" industries, protectionism, a strong national military, a strong federalized monetary policy, and a liberal interpretation of the commerce clause and the "necessary and proper" clause to justify expanded federal power.

Hell, Hamilton spent the better part of the constitutional convention harping about how America should have a monarchy! There is no greater antithesis of libertarianism in the founding generation than Hamilton, and Jefferson for all his flaws still ends up miles ahead on any honest comparative scale.

Now if you want a list of truly great libertarian founders, you have to go to the more obscure among them. George Mason, Luther Martin, and St. George Tucker come to mind.

Re: ABJ!

Will Wilkinson — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:25:19 -0000

OK, I'm convinced Hamilton was horrible, too, which does nothing to improve my regard for Jefferson.

Re: ABJ!

William — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:21:00 -0000

"Thomas Jefferson OWNED people, KNEW it was wrong, and kept doing it anyway."

Yes he did, and as much as he did it he was also a product of his century. But many of the same sins were perpetrated by Alexander Hamilton. The biographies by McDonald and Chernow both record instances where Hamilton essentially rented the slaves of others to perform housework. He also served as a proxy bidder for slaves at an auction and participated in the capture and return of fugitive slaves to their owners.

Does this making him any less of a man of his time and context than Jefferson? No. But it does negate the contention that Hamilton had some sort of upper hand over Jefferson in the "practice what you preach" department.

Re: ABJ!

William — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:16:35 -0000

"Hamilton was a better political theorist, a better economist, was against slavery, and for trade, technological progress and rapid economic growth."

Uh, Will. You should take a moment to better familiarize yourself with Hamilton's politics before making statements like that. The only thing in that entire sentence with even a grain of truth to it is Hamilton's stance against slavery, and even that is only in the abstract sense. In day to day life Hamilton had no problem entering financial transactions that involved the purchase and sale of slaves for others, and he even rented slaves for employment doing house chores.

As to your assessment of his economics, they are entirely wrongheaded. Hamilton's economic writings, particularly his 1791 Report on Manufactures, were in no small way a direct attempt to refute Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," which remains essentially the bible of libertarian economics to this day.

This is evident both in Hamilton's own time when his Report on Manufactures claimed an immediate position as the American response to the "British" views of Smith and later Ricardo, and in its direct economic heirs: Matthew Carey, Henry Carey, and Frederick List. Nor was any of this by accident as, far from being "for trade," Hamilton's report mounted a vigorous defense of the quintessential doctrines of mercantile protectionism.

No less a source than Milton Friedman traced the pernicious "infant industry" argument for protectionism to Hamilton. Thus, wrote Friedman, the argument "that was made by Alexander Hamilton and continues to be repeated down to the present, is that free trade would be fine if all other countries practiced free trade but that, so long as they do not, the United States cannot afford to. This argument has no validity whatsoever, either in principle or in practice."

Re: ABJ!

Will Wilkinson — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:20:58 -0000

Alberto wins!