DISQUS

Will Wilkinson: Guest Workers and The Ultimate Liberal Aim

  • TLB · 1 year ago
    0.0001%

    That's the percentage of Americans who wouldn't think Wilkinson is a loon. His childish dream would allow completely unlibertarian foreign governments to send us people in order to gain political power, just as the MexicanGovernment has been able to do.

    Their president recently stated that they're going to be working with U.S. nonprofits to push their agenda inside the U.S. He didn't specify that all of those nonprofits had to be far-left, so maybe Cato could pick up a few coins.
  • Kevin B. O'Reilly · 1 year ago
    First, what's the polling data on support for a temporary guest worker program (say, the one that Dubya proposed which was pretty close to Dan Griswold's idea) versus support for upping the number of green cards? Both you and Kerry are saying that a temporary program has more support, and I don't doubt you're right but, you know ... trust, but verify.

    Second, why is radically expanding the number of green cards at odds with the idea of integrating labor markets? Are green-card holders *obligated* to stay in the U.S. if they don't wish to? Does it somehow prevent return migration? If that's the case, why not change those rules instead of adding a guest-worker set of rules on top of it? I guess I don't understand the advantage, in principle, of guest worker programs. But if the advantage is really based on political popularity, I'd like to see the evidence for that.
  • Carter · 1 year ago
    From your Mises link (sec. 8):

    "On the one side stand scores, indeed, hundreds of millions of Europeans and Asiatics who are compelled to work under less favorable conditions of production than they could find in the territories from which they are barred. They demand that the gates of the forbidden paradise be opened to them so that they may increase the productivity of their labor and thereby receive for themselves a higher standard of living. On the other side stand those already fortunate enough to call their own the land with the more favorable conditions of production. They desire, as far as they are workers, and not owners of the means of production, not to give up the higher wages that this position guarantees them. The entire nation, however, is unanimous in fearing inundation by foreigners. The present inhabitants of these favored lands fear that some day they could be reduced to a minority in their own country and that they would then have to suffer all the horrors of national persecution to which, for instance, the Germans are today exposed in Czechoslovakia, Italy, and Poland.

    It cannot be denied that these fears are justified."

    Mises concludes:

    "It is clear that no solution of the problem of immigration is possible if one adheres to the ideal of the interventionist state, which meddles in every field of human activity, or to that of the socialist state."

    The majority of the world favors a meddling, interventionist, socialist state. So why don't you agree with Mises that no solution to the problem of immigration is possible?
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Mises does not think that there is no solution. He thinks that the solution is to undermine "the ideal of the interventionist state", which is why he bothered to write a book that we are still talking about. Do you think his work is pointless?
  • Matt Tievsky · 1 year ago
    Thank you, Will--a very valuable article that changes how I think about the issue of guest worker programs.
  • Carter · 1 year ago
    There is no indication of the interventionist state being undermined anywhere. Even Mises concedes that until there is, immigration fears are justified.

    Mises appears to have thought getting rid of the interventionist state, along with the creation of a right of secession (see sec.2) were necessary conditions in order to have "universal movement". Libtertarians today assure us they will do those things after the borders are thrown open.
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    The common European labor market does exist, and even continues to grow, in case you missed that. Actuality strictly entails possibility, no?
  • alphie · 1 year ago
    China has to deal with over 100 million migrant workers and it's still kicking America's arse economically.

    We'd rather be racist than rich, I 'spose.
  • Fred S. · 1 year ago
    Just a quick question, Will. Your pro-migration argument seems premised on the notion that people have some sort of absolute (natural) right to freely contract which is unjustifiably impinged upon by the various gov'ts. Would you argue that an American company ought to be permitted, for example, to sell weapons to a foreign nation with which the United States was at war?
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Fred, The right to travel and contract freely may be limited if it conflicts with other rights. If Americans have a right to security against external aggressors, and that right cannot be secured if citizens are selling weapons to the enemy, then the right to do so may be limited.
  • a Duoist · 1 year ago
    We libertarians continue to argue immigration as if it were merely an issue of free economics. But every Paris riot, every genocide, all revolutions--even mass migrations--are grounded in the psychology of human identity formation, not just economic decisions. Immigration is a far more complex issue than economics, or free markets. Osama bin Laden is a second generation immigrant, to point out an extreme example: highly educated, independently wealthy, enjoys organization. An ideal immigrant...but what makes up his personal identity, other than self-loathing?

    The American people are not going to support porous borders, cosmopolitan liberalism or not, so long as the social sciences are not an integral part of the solution, as well as free economics.
  • Fred S. · 1 year ago
    Will,

    That's fine. Some libertarians speak as though the right to contract with whomever whenever were some sort of fundamental, inalienable right which ought to trump all other interests.

    The fact is, economic concerns are but one-tenth of the argument against immigration. The failure to grapple with externalities (in terms of crime, population density, social cohesion, cultural continuity, etc.) ensures that libertarians absent themselves from 90% of the debate.

    To the extent that these concerns are addressed by libertarians, they usually adopt Alphie's technique: the mindless and facile slur of "racism".
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Fred, The racism point invariably comes up in part because many immigration opponents remain completely unmoved by empirical evidence regarding things like crime, social cohesion, etc. favorable to higher rates of immigration. And notions like "cultural continuity" when unpacked very often contain racial elements. Immigration foes don't like the charge of racism, because it stings, but in my experience it often does apply, does motivate opposition to immigration, and in those cases, it is not at all a facile to point it out.
  • Fred S. · 1 year ago
    Well, you'd have to specify what "empirical evidence" you're talking about. To my knowledge, no one has suggested that massive low-skill, Latin American immigration is conducive to social cohesion (Prof. Putnam's recent study says precisely the opposite) and the arguments that illegal immigrants committ crime at rates lower than the American average are highly dubious. If cultural continuity has "racial elements", by all means "unpack" it; don't jump immediately to the slur.

    The "racism" charged isn't disliked because it "stings"; it's application is resented because, in modern-day America, it has the same relationship to reasoned debate as the atomic bomb has to conventional warfare. It is an ad hominem attack, which bypasses the merits of the interlocutor's arguments and proclaims to an audience "I have looked into my opponent's soul, perfectly understood his motivations, and have decided that he is beyond the pale of civilised discourse; under no circumstances should anything he says be considered".

    Because this slur tends to be unanswearble, has enormous deterrent effect (no one wants to be labelled a racist) and helps the user to convince himself that he is battling unadulterated evil rather than engaging in reasoned discourse, it takes some discipline and no small amount of good faith not to engage it at any and all opportunities. Both these qualities are in short supply.
  • MaryJ · 1 year ago
    Some questions: In a democracy, how do you keep masses of uncontrolled immigrants from voting themselves massive amounts of welfare, at the expense of the native born taxpayer? (Already happening in many parts of the US where povery stricken illegals are basically allowed to vote, like California.) How do you keep masses of uncontrolled immigrants from forming an army that will kick us all out of our homes and take our property so their own people can enjoy them? This posting has convinced me that the libertarian open borders lunatics are just as crazy as the kumbaya-singing, "can't we all get along" left wing multiculturalist lunatics. Both are utopia-driven crazies living in a fantasy world where human nature can be "remade" -- when the totalitarian experiences of the 20th Century has proven the exact opposite. Moreover, it is not in the least bit "racist" to want to preserve native languages, tradiitons and cultures. With open borders, whoever has the biggest population totals will overwhelm and destroy smaller native cultures. I'm not interested in living in a world in which the only two cultures left standing are Subcontintental and Chinese. What of the English, the Danes, the Dutch, the Tongans,the Mauritians, etc.? Do they have no right to survive as as peoples? Libertarians, like Marxists, both erroneously believe that human beings are nothing but economic units. History has proven both of them massively wrong.
  • MaryJ · 1 year ago
    From Mr. Wilkinson's comentary called "Marketplace:

    "Mexico’s GDP per capita is about what Poland’s was in 2004. That was the year Poland became a part of the E.U., and started sending a large flow of newly-legal migrant workers to a much wealthier Britain. This neither increased British unemployment, nor overtaxed social services. (EDITORIAL comment: These are both big fat lies, but whatever.)

    "It’s been a boon to both the British and the Polish economies, and a higher percentage of Polish workers now circulate back home. Romania and Bulgaria are even poorer than Mexico, but they are now set to integrate their labor markets with the rest of the E.U. in seven years."

    The problem is, Mr. Wilkinson, which you so conveniently "forgot" to mention, is that indigenous Britons are leaving their homeland -- where their ancestors have lived for thousands of years -- at the rate of 500K a year, most of them because of the ill effects of massive, inappropriate, and deeply unsettling immigration from a vast plethora of competing non-indigenous, non-compatible cultures. And they are taking their skills and their wealth and their tax base with them. Ultimately this will cause the British economy to collapse, as those replacing the fleeing indigenous population are not as educated, wealthy or law-abiding as the natives. Their number one destination is Australia -- the one Western nation left in the world that has strict immigration policies, and which also offers an approximation of the fleeing Britons' native Anglo-Saxon culture and values.. Your libertarian fantasies are not going to work in a world where First Worlders will simply flee their native lands for ones that are not overwhelmed by immigration anarchy and cultural displacement. If your fantasy world is indeed so much "richer and freer" as you claim, why are all those Brits fleeing the homeland their ancestors have occupied for thousands of years? Closer to home, why are native-born Californians running away from the "richness" of massive immigration at the rate of 300K per year?

    Massive immigration has also resulted, in both Britain and the US, in LESS freedom, not more, with the introduction of a huge police state to control ever-burgeoning crime rates (Britain has the largest per capita number of CCTV cameras in the world, California has draconian "three strikes and you're out" laws), totalitarian "hate speech" and "anti-racism" laws that have virulently suppressed native culture and traditions, and Orwellian mandatory "diversity training" classes that resemble nothing so much as Maoist self-improvement sessions.

    Also I find it rather amusing that a "libertarian" is using the European Union -- a massive, socialistic, bureaucratic state controlled by unelected elites, which is becoming progressively more totalitarian as time goes by -- as a model exemplar for "freedom."
  • Micha Ghertner · 1 year ago
    I like how "MaryJ" accuses libertarians of living in a fantasy world while in the very same post worrying terribly about the well-documented problem of Raul, Miguel and Julio down by the Home Depot, getting their little militia together like Latin versions of Jim Gilchrist. Um, yeah.
  • bjk · 1 year ago
    Wouldn't the ultimate liberal aim be better served by selling US citizenship rather than through guest workers or immigration? Let's say you auctioned off say citizenship rights equal to 1% of the US each year, so 3 million passports. In turn you got $100000 per passport, which doesn't sound crazy considering all the wealthy people who want to live here. In fact, the cost would probably be much higher. If my math is right, that's $300 billion per year, which buys alot of enchiladas. If you share just 1/3 of that with the displaced immigrants who would have taken those immigration slots, the would-be guest workers or immigrants would be much better off. If libertarians see nations as clubs, why not auction off citizenship like clubs do?
  • FrankV · 8 months ago
    The American labor market is remarkably dynamic, even during a downturn. Each month, millions of new jobs are created as entrepreneurs start new companies and existing firms hire new workers. Also, millions of jobs also disappear as uncompetitive firms go out of business and existing companies let workers go. The recession has already driven up the rate of unemployment and the number of layoffs, but it hasn't negatively affected payday loans. Even though the number of people that lose their jobs due to massive job cuts, the demand for payday loans and advance lending has actually remained the same – in fact, it has gone up. It isn't really a consolation; the unemployment rate is climbing worldwide, and climbing to levels that are the highest they’ve been since before World War 2. That isn't a problem any amount of payday loans are going to fix.