DISQUS

Will Wilkinson: Meditations on Collective Action and Moral Norms

  • Bill Gardner · 1 year ago
    "Why? Because I’m a soulless, reductive, naturalist, I think there’s a good answer to that: because heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too. This is where a lot of people will part ways from me. They feel uncomfortable seating normativity in individual flourishing. However, I find all the relevant alternatives to be basically religious."

    Well, I think you can practice Buddhism in a way that allows you to be soulless, reductive, naturalist; believe that moral action can be seated in human flourishing; and be basically religious. Go ahead and laugh.
  • Pithlord · 1 year ago
    because heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too

    But why isn't this just as "religious" as the alternatives. On the one hand, you want to retain a distinction between the prudent and the moral. So, someone should heed a constraint even when it is against her interests if she would prefer the counter-factual world in which everyone heeded it to the counter-factual world in which no one heeded it. But why, since she doesn't live in either of those counter-factual worlds, and since you seem like the sort of person who would make fun of counter-factual worlds in the first place.
  • Bill Gardner · 1 year ago
    "And since I think morality is for enabling human flourishing..."

    And the reason for setting a boundary at that species is?
  • DWAnderson · 1 year ago
    Ok, so I actually read that far TWICE. Your main point/queries I largely agree with the thrust of.

    On your discussion of your view of "whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest ought to be normatively binding" I think you ignore the Rawlsian moral sense. I think it has a role to play even if it is not sufficient to explain morality or its constraints in and of itself.
  • "Q" the Enchanter · 1 year ago
    "[A given constraint on self-interest is morally binding if] heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too.."

    Should my interpretive "if" be an "only if"? An "if and only if"?

    Individual flourishing may be part of what grounds moral imperatives, but it would seem quite insufficient on its own (cf., for example, the problem of sadistic pleasure). Wouldn't you agree that you need a prior theory of good character (such that only the flourishing or persons with such-and-such character traits can ground a moral imperative)?
  • "Q" the Enchanter · 1 year ago
    I probably should have said "Wouldn't you agree that at minimum..."
  • Kyle · 1 year ago
    Hey Will, the previous commenters have latched onto what I think is the key passage here as well. I would find it really helpful if you could flesh out what you mean by "individual flourishing." I get that this is something to do with "being better off," but what does this entail? On what indices is it measured? If you've already written extensively about this maybe you could just point me to where those essays are located? Thanks a lot.
  • Tim Lee · 1 year ago
    Did you really read this far?

    Yes.
  • "Q" the Enchanter · 1 year ago
    On the issue of being soulless, by the way, I've always liked Giulio Giorello's remark: "Yes, we have a soul, but it's made of lots of tiny robots!"
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Q, Robots! I'm stealing that!
  • Winton Bates · 1 year ago
    I find it hard to accept that heeding a moral restraint (e.g. refraining from pilfering) is a religious position unless conditional on others heeding it. But it doesn't worry me greatly one way or the other!

    Leaving that aside, it seems to me that it might be helpful to bring into consideration how conditionality can be related to rational ignorance on moral issues. Rational ignorance comes into the equation because it takes effort for me, and people like me, to work out a moral position from scratch, particularly on complex issues like climate change. So a lot of us tend to follow the lead of preachers of one kind or another (including the secular variety). But we don't just follow blindly - our willingness to follow is often conditional on the preacher's actions. We expect the preacher to "put his or her money where his or her mouth is" i.e. to set an example through his or her own behaviour. And we tend to stop following when a preacher doesn't practice what he/she preaches.
  • John O · 1 year ago
    People come first. Never self.
    There is your restraint.

    The debate is always if the people are actually coming first. Sometimes we put air before people. That is immoral.
  • Pithlord · 1 year ago
    If the claim here is a descriptive one that the moral sense evolved as a way of solving collective action problems, then I find it plausible. If it is a normative one that we should do things if and only if our actions solve collective action problems, then it strikes me as bizarre.
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Pithlord, I'm definitely making the descriptive claim. But I'm not setting out any necessary and sufficient conditions for individual action. The question is whether or not some moral convention or norm tends to actually make the people who follow it better off. There are lots of conventions that do nothing much at all, and I have no problem with them. And obviously a worthwhile new convention can't do any good if some people don't adopt it first, and early on it won't be solving any problem. But whether or not it makes sense to be an early adopter, or to be an evangelist for a new norm, does have to do with whether or not the norm, if broadly established, would be generally beneficial. No?
  • Lee · 1 year ago
    Will, you are not the only person who thinks the "lots of tiny robots" line is cute. Daniel Dennett has quoted it in a few interviews and one of his books. It's a great slogan for naturalism.
  • Pithlord · 1 year ago
    Will,

    Are you coming out as a rule utilitarian?
  • John · 1 year ago
    Will,

    Are you ONLY making the descriptive claim? Because what you say in the third paragraph - that "if we’re talking about whether or not a certain constraint on self-interest ought [your emphasis] to be normatively binding ... I think there’s a good answer to that: because heeding the constraint will tend to make the person who heeds it better off, conditional on others heeding it, too" - sure seems to have a normative dimension as well. (Or am I missing something?)
  • Matt · 1 year ago
    "Indeed, I think the fact that we do successfully solve so many of them basically refutes strict rational choice assumptions."

    Aren't rational choice assumptions perfectly consistent with these solutions given preferences for being moral?
  • Will Wilkinson · 1 year ago
    Matt, Sure. But I'm talking about the conventional conception of rational choice in which the effect on the individual's welfare determines the preferences ordering.
  • Sigivald · 1 year ago
    Ethical vegetarians can be very evangelical but don’t seem to be very interested in banning or taxing meat at all. Why not?

    Because they're rational enough to realise they have exactly zero chance of achieving that goal, perhaps?

    The way they get instantly dismissed, laughed at, or funny looks if they suggest a ban on meat would tend to discourage, if not such a goal, then at least mentioning it.

    (Achieving it by admitting that's their goal, at any rate - I suppose they could sneakily have that goal and have a "moral softening-up" agenda already.)