Will Wilkinson - Latest Comments in Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Nate — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:16:27 -0000

You do realize that it was Democrats that passed the bailout, with a large amount of Republican dissent... To call Bush a free-marketer or capitalist is an over-estimation of his intelligence.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Nate — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:14:26 -0000

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac aren't regulated? The SEC was intimately involved in regulating and approving derivatives, which is why so many people bought them without a second thought. If the government hadn't built a cloud of trust around worthless assets most investors would have taken a second look and ignored them completely.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

longbongsilver — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:08:48 -0000

...or we could actually acknowledge who the overwhelming majority of State power benefits -- politically connected elites & the wealthy -- and attack statism on honest grounds for once.

The phrase "Free market capitalism" is like saying "snake with feet". Capitalists love big government precisely because it tends to shield them from the fallout of crap decisions. That these corporations even exist to beg for bailouts in the first place shows how much meddling there has already been in the market, since they clearly couldn't have survived this long without it.

I agree libertarians have largely been used as propaganda cover for corporate statism. That's why we need to throw off this tendency to want to fit in with the social circles of big business boosters.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

c3 — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:15:21 -0000

Klein quote:

"I use to describe the political strategy of deliberately using a crisis—not deliberately creating a crisis, but deliberately using the fear, panic, and desperation that is induced by a cataclysmic event, whether it's a natural disaster or war or terrorist attack or an economic crisis, to very rapidly push through economic shock therapy. And so that's what The Shock Doctrine is—using one shock to push through an economic shock."

You mean like nationalizing financial institutions and the auto industry.? Isn't this more about governments/politicians reacting (and over-reaching) in a crisis: "Don't just stand there, DO SOMETHING" Her soft-peddling of FDR interventions was weak. "Populist shock therapy"? I'm not sure how "populist" an auto bailout is?

Ironically, she seems to be appealing to a classic conservative sensibility: "Beware of governmental over reaction."

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Fledermaus — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:04:35 -0000

Crap I've tied myself up here. What I'm trying to say is that your view of a free market capitalism, like communism, looks great on paper but is unlikely to work out in practice. I guess socalism (sp?) is what you get when a free market capitalist's buddies take a bath in the market. Since free government money is a fact of life now we're just arguing about who should get the largess

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Dain — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:40:46 -0000

Wait, who are you saying is contradicting themselves? You mean Bush? Of all that he's ever said during the past 8 years, I scarcely recall him discussing Friedman. And him saying he likes capitalism is hopelessly vague, again, no more interesting than a Stalinist saying he likes "socialism." Either way, people actually dedicated to making a living as a professional free-marketeer or socialist can take what these professonal politicians say with a grain of salt.

If rhetoric should be held responsible for reality, then every tin pot dictator who's made references to the "people's will" or other vague, generally warm and fuzzy sounding b.s. ought to be strung up along with their lame, super nice ideology.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Fledermaus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:37:04 -0000

I agree that you are sincere in opposing all the bailouts. But that is not the world we live in. The s&l bailout, ltcm bailout, now this 700b give away all from someone who touted himself as a strong defender of free market capitalism and Friedman's philosophy. And this is what we get. How many times does Lucy have to pull the football away, Charlie Brown?

A Trotskyite would likewise argue that "although Stalin claimed to be a strong defender of Marxism he put an elite few in charge of industry who enriched themselves on the backs of an opressed labor force, not unlike western capitalists, therefore Stalin is the ultimate vindication of Marxism"

I don't buy it, but there we are. Your free market ideas will continue to be used to justify dening assistance to the poor and middle class and conviently ignored when the wealthy get themselves into trouble. Perhaps, just perhaps , we could try it the other way around for a while?

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Dain — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:00:18 -0000

Seems as if libertarians - the ultimate free market fundamentalists - have overwhelmingly NOT approved of the torrent of bailouts lately. Jeffrey Miron, for instance. I'm not sure who you speak of that is at all representative.

The last 8 years have seen an incredible increase in government assistance, including Bush's "ownership society" nonsense, which contributed to the current problem. The claim of a hugely interventionist Bush administration is a widely recognized fact at this point. Increased spending on discretionary "nice" stuff like education, etc.

And actually, there are many communists who'd claim that communism hasn't been tried, only authoritarian undemocratic versions. I'm not that familiar with their train of thought, so I'd best be humble. This sort of reminds me of the argument that Nietzsche was responsible for the Nazis, that Marx was responsible for Stalin.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

fledermaus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:11:33 -0000

Hmmm, last comment got eated.

Dain,

you have to deal with the free market you have not the free market on Big Rock Candy Mountain. The wall street bailout is a fact, admittedly supported on both sides of the aisle. And it was demanded by the very people who have spent the last 8 years or more extolling the vitrues of Milton and telling us how their hands off policies would unleash the wonderous powers of the free market and vigorously opposing any sort of government assistance (Hi Welfare Reform!) to those not part of the financial aristocracy.

Once again how does this differ from the sad bitter Trotskyites complaining that Stalin wasn't a real communist and real communism hasn't been tried?

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

fledermaus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:56:41 -0000

You deal with the free market you have not the free market on Big Rock Candy Mountain. The wall street bailout is a fact and it was demanded by people (both GOP and Dem, admittedly) who spent the last 8 years or more extolling Milton and how their policies would unleash "free market capitialism." This is what we got.

Once again I fail to see how this is not unlike to those sad, sorry trotskyites bitterly complaining that real communism hasn't been tried.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Dain — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:16:25 -0000

No. Capitalism doesn't require that 700 billion dollars. Socialists like George W. Bush believe it does.

I heard that John Stewart rant about a "useful" product too...

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

fledermaus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:05:16 -0000

Last time I checked capitialism required 700 Billion dollars of public money.

If you guys want to be the useful idiots for the financial aristrocrasy, go right ahead. But don't tell me that the 700 billion for wall street parasites is all very regrettable but less than 5% of that amount for industry that actually produces a useful product is A BRIDE TOO FAR!!!!!!!ONEONEELEVENTYONE!!

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Dain — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:41:59 -0000

There was a book released only last year called Freedom From Want by Edward Gresser, about the what he believes to be the decline in free-trade sentiment on the part of the Democrats. According to him, they've abandoned their traditional liberal internationalism on this front.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Sigivald — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:37:18 -0000

Libertarianism is selected against in human societies because its un-natural.

Ah, the naturalistic fallacy. (Devolve into Russia or Somalia? When were either "libertarian"?)

Please note further that "social" and "individual" are not warring opposites, if taken in the proper context. Humans are social animals in that we like company and in that autarky leaves us all impoverished and immiserated.

"Individualism" at the political level, however, is opposed to collectivism rather than "society".

Might I suggest, say, the first volume of The Open Society and Its Enemies to straighten you out on the thoroughly incorrect identification of "society" and "collective", and "individual" with "egotist"?

(As for "evolve"? You're the one arguing (incorrectly) that social collectivism is the current "natural" state of man, not its future. It's far more supportable to consider a libertarian or Liberal social pattern as the evolved one.)

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Webgrrl — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:44:56 -0000

How awkward this all is. There used to be this position called "centrist Democrat," where you could explain to people that global capitalism & free trade was a good thing, and also admit that there were rare occasions where governent could usefully play a role. And on those occasions, then you could pop in some nice clean "good government," to let normal life go on. Now last spring that entire position evaporated and we are left with Change Candy, which seems to grow by the week. I no longer know if Democrats believe in free trade or not. I can't make sense of Obama's health care plan, which is of course what Robin Hanson would tell me to expect. Why is she unhappy? Isn't Klein getting everything she wanted? Moderation is now an impossible position, partially thanks to her, so of course people dash to the ideological basics. Sigh.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Dain — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:04:16 -0000

If I were a die hard socialist, the main lesson I'd draw from the current economic crisis would be that the government failed to do its job. After all, we should expect capitalists to be greedy psychopaths, so the failure of the government to stop them is a failure of the master to prevent its pitbull from attacking others. Just as corporations need permsission from the government to exist (a charter), the pitbull needs food and shelter from its master.

As a good socialist, I'd show the government that I was displeased by exiting! But only if I were inclined toward anarchy and secession, which would make me libertarian.

Oops, I've come full circle. Even if Klein is right, libertarianism is the answer.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

simone — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:35:14 -0000

Naomi Klein is an narrow minded ideologue. I would not waste my time debating her. Reason is her real enemy.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Take The Kash — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:10:34 -0000

I wish you would be specific on what is so dunce like in the selection Will posted. That goes for you Will. It seems that any true believer will retreat to basics whenever reality brings forth flaws in a philosophy or ideology. Look at the Catholic church of the past several decades. After a liberal phase, '60s and '70s, recent popes are retreating to more traditional views. Same thing goes for the Republican party, many Republicans want to get back to something, that debate continues. Even Greenspan admitted recently to flaws in the system. So please explain what you see as so dumb about what N.K. said. Thanks.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Yonah — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:08:37 -0000

Of all the things that Ms Klein has said, this ranks among the least objectionable.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Cool Cal — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:19:27 -0000

I'm generally speaking anthropologically. In these instances, indeed, while willing submission was initially a factor, can we deny that none of these regimes eventually needed to rely on coercive military elements, police state tactics, etc.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Jeff — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:02:20 -0000

I'm envisioning chants of "De -bate - Wil!! De-bate -Will!" chants breaking out during Klein's lecture here at the University of Iowa.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Snarky1 — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:50:34 -0000

The reason that you don't see libertarian governments is because every form of government, as soon as it's established, begins to grow. In fact, it's amazing to see how government protects itself and soaks up resources. Societies develop governments to oversee small squabbles and to protect the citizens (and sometimes to build infrastructure.) Establish a tax? More government. Create a government funded school system? More government. Regulate what items can go to market? More government. Nationalize the auto industry? More government. Someone doesn't like it? Use force against them => tyranny.

Government, not industry, needs to be regulated. All governments, even democratic ones, will march steadily towards authoritarianism. Being responsible to the shareholders (voters) has slowed America's progress towards fascism. The two party system has also slowed our progress by creating infighting in government. Still, the government has violated the only regulations ever placed upon it (the Constitution) and (God bless our forefathers) was even given control over their own regulations! It's no surprise that socialism is right around the corner.

The only way to halt this progress is through revolution. You tear down government when it becomes too powerful and start over with more specific restrictions. Depending on who led the revolution you begin with a libertarian government, a democracy, socialism, fascism, or what have you. The cycle will repeat as long as some people hold force over others.

"When the people find they can vote themselves money , that will herald the end of the Republic." - Ben Franklin

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

berger — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:23:51 -0000

How many exclamation points will you drop on her in your debate? If I we're you I'd stick to 3 - 4 max. You want to save the "!!!!!" for a debate with Frank.

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

lxm — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:22:09 -0000

unregulated derivatives

Re: Naomi Klein Quote of the Day

Snarky1 — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:10:20 -0000

"What needs defending is unbridled capitalism versus well regulated capitalism."
"...unbridled capitalism versus well regulated capitalism."
"...well regulated capitalism."
"...regulated capitalism."

I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle. We should pursue free socialism. That way, you have both "free" and "socialism"! It couldn't fail!