Will Wilkinson - Latest Comments in The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Mark Michael Lewis — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:23:26 -0000

Second thought, Second Comment

The question that is not addressed in this blog or in the talk is levels of development. Whether or not you agree with the particular characterizations of Spiral Dynamics or Integral Institute's "Elevations," the evidence for development of our values is critical to understand these issues.

Different levels of the developmental spiral relate to these moral sentiments radically differently, and different levels are attracted to each of them. For people who do not have a sufficiently advanced and abstract understanding of self/culture, fairness is not compelling to them. Purity, authority, and in-group give them guidance and principles that they can understand and implement. If you take them away as legitimate values, they are left with anarchy and fear. This is not good - danger Will Robinson, Danger.

Red can understand in-group and authority/power easily, perhaps purity in an ethnic/race sense, but not fairness, care, and purity. When might makes right, and fair/care is stupidity.

Blue can understand authority/obedience/loyalty, and extends "in-group" well, and purity in terms of dogma, but fair/care towards evil people makes no sense.

Orange understands fairness optimally - a nation of laws not men, all men are created equal, inalienable rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness according to our conscience. However, in-group, authority, care, purity all threaten fairness.

Green understands care well. At its best, it understands that fairness is the foundation of care, and lack of it undermines care. It finds authority, purity, and in-group to be threatening to care, and at worst, fairness also becomes a threat to care.

Yellow can appreciate the value of each of the sentiments, especially their relative value to people whose values "center" is at red, blue, orange, or green respectively. By understanding the value of each of these moral sentiments to different levels of moral development (and/or different levels of our brain processes - myth and symbols are powerful unconscious drivers of behavior), we can respect the real-world mental/emotional frameworks that people and cultures use to guide their behavior.

If, on the other hand, we de-legitimize the more unconscious, primal value sentiments (ingroup, authority, purity), we undermine the development people need to understand the more abstract and universal moral sentiments (fairness/care).

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Mark Michael Lewis — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:09:08 -0000

Two thoughts. Two comments.

First, the sequence in which you apply these values is significant.
If you do 1) authority, 2) purity, 3) ingroup, 4) care, 5) fair you might get a group that is puts high value on those who are pure followers of a leader, offering them care as fairly as you can, but those who don't aren't worthy of consideration.

If you reverse the order, to 1) fair, 2) care, 3) ingroup, 4) purity, 5) authority you get people who want to be fair first and foremost - not to screw people. Then, to offer care within the boundaries of fairness (not to violate fairness to care). Then honoring those who agree to play by rules of fairness and caring above those who violate those standards. Then to especially honor those who most purely act consistent with fair/care, who embody those values most thoroughly, and then to honor the authorities we have authorized to adjudicate and enforce our social agreements around fairness, as well as the leaders we have entrusted to inspire caring.

Authority, In-Group, and Purity are absolutely useful as heurisms WHEN they are in service of fairness first, caring second. In fact, without them, liberal societies won't work. The key is the nature of the authority, the boundaries of in vs. out-group, and the principles that we strive towards purity around - namely fairness and caring within that fairness.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

claymisher — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:02:42 -0000

Haidt's work has terrific explanatory power, his methodology (moral dumbfounding) is cool, and any libertarian has got to love that he's offering a prize to anyone who can amend his theory. I'm a fan. But I have to agree with Will, Haidt is giving conservatives too much credit regarding the great conservative insight. Are the three conservative morals (authority, tribalism, purity) really any more about order than the liberal two (care and fairness)? Civil war, sectarianism, blood in the streets, etc is obviously harmful and unfair. There are plenty of liberals who roll their eyes at modern-day Jacobins, and plenty of conservatives who are happy to tear apart society in pursuit of their tribal instincts (That may be an unintended consequence. They might assume they are maintaining order). Those exercising their conservative morals were certainly the villains during the civil rights era.

Still, it's easy to imagine a time in the previous million years of humanity when the conservative three conferred some selective advantage. If you boiled down what people consider the virtues of a warrior, it'd be authority and tribalism. So as much as I wish it weren't so, I doubt the conservative three are going away. I doubt that liberals will be able to reason them out of existence.

Haidt's correct to take the problem of anomie seriously. You've got to give the people who care about authority, tribe, and purity a way to exercise those morals, or someone else will.

Will, thanks for bringing Haidt to wider attention. Your BH episode with him was fantastic (I listened to it twice), and I'm happy to see you keep engaging with the subject.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

an onyx mousse — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:54:19 -0000

Will, I think you are vastly unimaginative regarding the categories that Haidt labels as "Conservative." What has been happening over time is not that society is more "liberal" by focusing on "harm" and "fairness" to the exclusion of the others, but the wealthy Western countries have gotten more sophisticated in how all these mores are acted out. We now have focus on healthy food, thinness, and use of birth control as ways of measuring purity, and education, income, and culture / manners as ways of measuring in-group status. As for authority, to the extent that crime, looting and rioting are not problematic in your neighborhood, well there you go. Also, millions of people are going to vote on Tuesday with no coercion other than cultural respect for government as a concept.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

JA — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:53:24 -0000

I'll just add three things. One, we mustn't forget about the requirements of survival vis-a-vis the external environment. Two, the reciprocity instinct motivates us toward redress/revenge (when we experience an "affecting perception of injustice"); this motivation cannot be removed from the in-group instinct; in many ways it alters and amplifies it; and yet this "concept of justice" is absolutely necessary for liberal society, the center of mass in Hayekian and Rawlsian liberalism. Three, a society must have both order and chaos to survive and adapt; it must be "balanced on the border" between the two; infiltration-expeditions into new realms of design space must be a central feature of a healthy society, or it will soon be overtaken and vanquished by its competitors.

Overall, this kind of binary analysis is interesting, but not very helpful.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

winton_bates — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:47:33 -0000

It seems to me that a libertarian can view all five moral intuitions identified by Haidt as being relevant in different contexts. Families have a comparative advantage in dealing with harm/care issues. Fairness/reciprocity is particularly important in dealings with strangers (we enjoy the benefits of market economies because people are generally trustworthy and a lot of people are willing to make sacrifices in order to punish people who are not trustworthy); in-group loyalty and authority/respect enable us to obtain the benefits of large organizations which have to be run along hierarchical lines; and purity/chastity is purely an individual matter. Socialists, nationalists, conservatives etc. tend to define themselves by their desire to take particular moral intutitions into the political sphere. Socialism is about harm/care issues and regulation/redistribution to achieve fariness; nationalism is about in-group loyalty; conservativism is about hierarchy and purity/chastity.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Ian B — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:29:41 -0000

It seems to me that three things are being conflated here.

Wouldn't revolutionary/reactionary better describe the insight that “order is really hard to achieve, it’s really precious, and really ready to lose.” Try to change for the better, but not so fast that things fall apart -- sure, that's valid.

This seems to me to be distinct from the liberal/conservative divide, if by that Haidt means left wing/right wing. For the past couple of decades, the American right wing has been trying to change the established liberal order dating back to the New Deal (the "Reagan Revolution").

Haidt's five foundations seem to be a third thing entirely. A social order can secure voluntary support from its citizens only by recruiting these five foundations to motivate that support. I'm with John C here; liberal politics regularly recruits the three "conservative" foundations. For example, FDR considered human rights sacred (purity foundation, violations being considered disgusting alongside other sentimental reactions).

bjk, Haidt seems to think of harm/care as being more or less equivalent to Benthamite Utilitarianism. If you see flood victims on TV, you feel empathy for them and want to help regardless of why they are suffering.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

bjk — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:42:55 -0000

Of the five dials, so to speak, the liberal values are digital (harm and reciprocity) and the conservative are analog (purity, authority, and in-group). You either harm or don't harm, and you either reciprocate or don't. It's hard to imagine too little harm or too much reciprocity. Not true of the conservative virtues, and we need both. Let's take the family on the street after a hurricane. Reciprocity won't work (they have no money). Harm won't work (you didn't put them there). Need overlap of harm (weak desire not to see them suffer), reciprocity (this might happen to me) and in group (hurricane victims in Bangladesh aren't at my door).

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

bjk — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:51:35 -0000

Isn't the family a little tribe that relies on subordination and moralized disgust?

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Sumant Rawat — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:06:53 -0000

Here's a non -Western take on the liberal/conservative argument.The notion of moral progress is not supported by history or the facts.Budhism is a pacifist highly moral religion but withered when confronted by militant Hinduism (Shankacharya's Hindu/Vedic revival in ~6th century),Islam in the 9th-10th century and Nationalism as in Japan and China following Western intrusion in the 19th and 20th centuries (Its survival in Tibet is primarily geographic).Evolutionary psychology is a glib explanation for certain behaviors but is unlikely to displace human history as a guide to human behavior.One reason why conservative Christians rightly recognise Darwin's idea as an explanation but never a guide to human morality.Religion may not be glib and glamorous but it does contain eternal truths.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

webgrrl — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:08:04 -0000

With all due respect Will, doesn't I. Berlin demolish Haidt in Section 3 of Political Ideas of the 20th Century? I'm not seeing any new arguments here; Haidt seems to be re-hashing old ideas from his "new" perspective.

Berlin's understanding of the the divide between "conservative" and "liberal" seems more true and forceful to me than Haidt's. Already in 1950 Berlin is seeing the need for, and avenue of, a Third Way. He even begins to describe how it might be founded. This binary talk of Haidt, frankly, seems frozen in the past to me.

It's precisely this kind of regression that makes me more and more interested in some form of futarchy. I mean, come on, boys, it's the 21st century already! Even tho' I am aware, to quote Berlin, "Chronological frontiers are seldom landmarks in the history of ideas."

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Alan Watson — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:37:23 -0000

Haidt’s model of moral instincts is plausible and stimulating. His understanding of liberalism is not.

A the beginning of his TED talk, Haidt tells us that personality tests show that openness to experience correlates to an affinity for left-wing politics. He further identifies the open personality as one in which education and culture have emphasized the first two of the five moral instincts and downplayed the other three.

Are liberals (in Haidt’s sense) really less concerned with in-group loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity? I suspect that the differences that show up in his personality tests are actually differences in the way these instincts are expressed and therefore measured by him, rather than fundamental differences in degree. My basis for this suspicion is strictly anecdotal, but consider a few examples: university “diversity” values associated with demands for political correctness that are as intolerant and closed-minded in their own way as the stereotypical insularity of small-town middle America; Obama (or Clinton) adored as a rock star or even a savior; and the quasi-religious aspects popular environmentalism.

Haidt’s fundamental mistake is to treat the concept of liberalism as though it has some kind of Platonic integrity, rather than as a mere description of actual policies and programs here in the real world. (Perhaps this appeals to his instinct for authority and respect?) I can identify at least four useful definitions of liberalism: (1) policies designed to maximize human freedom by restricting our freedom to interfere with others, developed in opposition to aristocratic, ecclesiastic, and mercantilist policies; (2) favoring change; (3) policies of the progressive movement and the FDR coalition; and (4) compassion, which I have heard a number of politicians claim is the essence of modern Democratic liberalism. The first of these describes a coherent program, the second a procedure, the third a partly ad hoc collection of policies, and the fourth a value. Although several of them might coincide in specific instances, these four concepts are not the same thing. If we use the word “liberalism” in political discussions without specifying which of the concepts we mean, it will be very difficult to escape from fuzzy thinking.

Although he tries to soften the tone of his partisanship with the yin/yang metaphor of a fruitful interplay between conservatives’ respect for existing institutions and liberals’ desire to do the right thing, Haidt’s fundamental political assumption is that the policies currently favored by those who consider themselves “on the left” are automatically good because they represent change. The great danger of this assumption is that it immunizes its holder against the need for analyzing the specific mechanisms and consequences of his political beliefs. As we argue over the degree to which the federal government ought to be involved in economic decisions, we ought to focus on the likely consequences of specific policies. Supporting a political program because politicians call it “liberal” (or “conservative”) might satisfy our instinct to demonstrate loyalty to a group we admire, but it is not careful analysis and is not likely to lead to optimal decisions.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

John C — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:59:26 -0000

Will, I think you're being a bit narrow-minded on the possible effects of 'authority', 'in-group' and 'purity' moralities. Even if the Hayekian story you tell is correct (and I think it is), these moralities can still play a role. Hayek himself said that he thought religion was important to convince people that Law was something to be discovered, not made and that this was important to the evolution of the common law. Following the natural law is related to a morality with strong 'authority' and 'purity' elements because it has a partly supernatural source.

'Authority' also has had a positive effect on the fight for civil rights. Consider MLK:

"You have a dual citizenry. You live both in time and eternity. Your highest loyalty is to God, and not to the mores or the folkways, the state or the nation, or any man-made institution. If any earthly institution or custom conflicts with God’s will, it is your Christian duty to oppose it. You must never allow the transitory, evanescent demands of man-made institutions to take precedence over the eternal demands of the mighty God."

If 'authority' is directed - in a Protestant fashion - not to any human but only to a just God, it can be quite helpful for liberal societies. In fact, Jeremy Waldron has argued this very thing, pointing out that it is the Christian idea of equality that lays at the foundation of liberal societies (God, Locke and Equality). 'Authority' morality and 'fairness/reciprocity' morality are connected in this way within Christianity in many cases.

'Purity' can be helpful as well, so long as it is properly directed.

I will say though that I think Christianity is largely responsible for the suppression of 'in-group' thinking in the West because it is essentially cosmopolitan. There are exceptions but its message is so strongly anti-in-group that this has been its general effect. As a Protestant liberal, I like some 'authority' and 'purity' but I don't like 'in-group' at all. Although, receiving the sacrament with my congregation is often a transcendent experience for me. I find that valuable but I like to think it doesn't polarize me against people outside of my church.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that a simple 'suppress authority, in-group and purity moralities' view lacks attention to important subtleties. Perhaps these moralities can be turned towards positive liberal ends. This seems to have been the case in the development of liberalism in history. Perhaps it is also true for maintaining liberalism and extending it.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Grant Gould — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 07:01:49 -0000

Mike Rappaport writes: Another problem with (nonclassical) liberalism is that it often exaggerates the two liberal modes. For example, some forms of multiculturism praise alternative cultures, even though those cultures are not praisworthy. Yet, once again, it is not clear that the conservative modes would help here.

I'll go one more step and say that the conservative modes are actively unhelpful in this. What makes many other cultures non-praiseworthy is exactly that they embrace subordination, tribalism, and taboo to so great an extent. Conservative mores actually require a much thicker multiculturalism that most of us are willing to contemplate.

The conservative must look at a witch-stoning in Nigeria and say, "oh, how wonderful! They are acting out their disgust by forcibly subordinating someone who has offended the in-group! If only we had more of that back in my native soils!" It is only the liberal who is free and indeed required to reject it as the utterly abominable barbarism that it is.

(Here, indeed, Haidt may be right, in a backward way: these traditional barbarian societies have much greater levels of social cohesion and stability than our communities. This is because social order is not in fact the absolute good that Haidt makes it out to be. Bad -- and even good -- social orders collapse all the time, and the world does not end so long as there are active alternatives at hand; divorcees are not immediately cast into a Hobbesian state of nature, for instances.)

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Grant Gould — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:53:34 -0000

It's not that Haidt doesn't have evidence of his "too little conservative virtue means social breakdown" thesis. It's that there is no such thing as evidence of this thesis. If there were in fact evidence that harmful and unfair results such as social breakdown followed from not having the conservative virtues, then they wouldn't be the conservative virtues at all but the liberal virtues -- demanded by fairness and harm-avoidance!

To the extent that they are uniquely conservative virtues, they need to be right or wrong without reference to the liberal norms. To the extent that they must be justified by life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we would be perfectly justified in throwing them overboard when they became destructive to those ends.

Re: The “Conservative” Moral Sentiments: Do We Need Them?

Mike Rappaport — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 03:33:33 -0000

This is a great post. I believe Haidt's work is important as a descriptive matter, but you make some strong points that we are better off without these three conservative modes.

I tried to think about where you were wrong -- about how these conservative modes help us -- and was largely unable to do so. I do believe there are conservative values that help us, just not those modes. Perhaps that suggests Haidt's work is incomplete. For example, a presumption in favor existing patterns does have some real advantages, but it is not one of Haidt's modes.

Another problem with (nonclassical) liberalism is that it often exaggerates the two liberal modes. For example, some forms of multiculturism praise alternative cultures, even though those cultures are not praisworthy. Yet, once again, it is not clear that the conservative modes would help here.