Will Wilkinson - Latest Comments in The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

JB — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:06:34 -0000

Human problems are definitely not solved by people shouting "I care ALOT and poor people hurt me in my sensitive places" while actively promoting policies that screw over people.

If you honestly don't think Republicans read, then maybe you need to get out more and meet a few of them. I don't think many college professors are "intellectual" because very few of them question the dogma they hear and spread on a consistent basis.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

skeptical — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:32:15 -0000

It isn't the morons vs. smart people. What makes "intellectuals" is the ability to be persuaded by demonstrable proof, and even your boatloads of morons are educable because they read, critically evaluate research, expose themselves to multiple points of view, even if they don't like them.

That makes middling professors at middling schools more "intellectual" than all the people responsible for Republican recruiting this decade, and however much Libertarian intellectual purity stands up to weaselly liberalism, Libertarians haven't quite understood human problems and suffering aren't solved by a shouting match.

You might have done well to immerse yourself in the thinking of a boatload of morons.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

JB — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:48:07 -0000

My party? I don't even have a party, buddy.

Anything citing "their IQ scores"? I know facts are hard and all.

I went to a top 20 school and often had fairly intelligent professors, but I purposefully avoided the boatload of morons. This was at one of the "better" schools. Academia, from professors down to students, isn't all that brilliant as many people like to claim it is.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Charles Flemming — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:28:37 -0000

boqueronman, your comment was obviously written by an illiterate backwoods snake handler…

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

boqueronman — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:15:20 -0000

It is difficult to read Will "Quagmire" Wilkinson without my blood pressure rising a few notches. Unfortunately, he once again stumbles into the territory of historical revisionism (that religion and science are mutually exclusive - read up on the Enlightenment and, if you wish, the Catholic Church's doctrine on reason) and - one of his favorites - Jacobin style anti-clericalism. Both subjects aallow his opinions to roam about unchecked by history, reason, or, indeed, common sense. Let me quote from a short essay by Dr. Bob at docisinblog.com:

"Detached from its moral grounding by its intellectual paradigms, the West has become increasingly and intractably secular. We now look to science for all answers about life; we have experts for everything; the new creation of Christianity has devolved into the evolutionary hopelessness and purposelessness of survival-of-the-fittest reductionism. We have become no more than random chance, with no purpose higher than our survival in this life, and no meaning beyond genetics or neurotransmitters or selfish genes. Morality, ethics, self-restraint are but social constructs convenient to our survival — and eminently disposable when the need arises.

The consequences of this imperceptible but profound change in worldview, centuries in the making, have brought us to our current state. We no longer trust the individual, based on the inculcation of moral and ethical values through family and cultural tradition, but instead trust no one, multiplying laws, rules, and regulations to micromanage behavior no longer restrained by the inner moral compass and now-discarded social mores. We no longer look to the individual, and family, the community, the church, to be the prime movers of support or those who fall by life’s wayside, in poverty, ill health, economic or social misfortune. We have outsourced our hearts, contracting with those most ill-suited to the task of compassion: those who by our own appointment or their own unbridled ambition have become our leaders in government."

To repeat a part of the above, "we no longer trust the individual, based on the inculcation of moral and ethical values through family and cultural tradition." Libertarianism unmoored by a Judeo-Christian understanding of and appreciation of the individual's responsibility to conduct himself or herself within a framework of moral and ethical constraints is a very great weakness and a reason why its doctrinaire proponents, such a Wilkinson, have never and will never play a practical role in national politics. Oh, and please, this chimera of the "threat" from the so-called religious right is risible. Their agenda is basically to prevent their taxpayer monies from being used for what they consider morally and ethically questionable activities, to say nothing of patently unconstitutional ones. None but the fringe elements push for any legal constraints on private activity.

Really, if your priorities are such that you endorse what Obama and his Chicago Boys are implementing, manipulated census data, a Civilian Expeditionary Workforce to suppress internal dissent, the Fairness Doctrine, the prohibition of voluntary, private sectarian activities on university campuses, ACORN funding to facilitate voter fraud, a new Smoot-Hawley protectionism, and probably hundreds of other hidden gems in the "pork"ulus bill, I say go ahead, break bread with the Democrats. Oh, and I'm sure you're all in favor of that no-loose foreign policy of talking the NoKos, Iranians, Chavistas, Hamas/Hezbollah out of hating us. That should work.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Charles Flemming — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:18:37 -0000

Clearly, ottovbvs, you have your ad hominems reversed.

You show by your comments, including this "rejoinder," that you don't know the difference between the conservative movement and the Republican Party. Nor do you know the difference between the various kinds of conservatives within the movement, many of whom are very libertarian, a surprising number of whom are social libertarians, not to mention a growing number of cultural/religious conservatives (like me), who are nonetheless quite comfortable leaving people's moral choices up to them.

Clearly you are unaware of just how poorly academia is doing in actually educating young adults and preparing them for anything other than left-wing, postmodern uselessness. We slam the academy, not because we're anti-intellectual, but because we long for the restoration of academic vigor and integrity, which is sorely missing in today's America. Your appeal to that authority is ludicrous to anyone who knows how to read and think for himself.

Just as clearly you are a pro at building straw men and then cherry-picking to support your "case."

You will get respect when you get off your high horse and a) demonstrate that you are familiar with the people and movements you criticize and b) quit speaking to very intelligent, well-educated people as if they just crawled out of the swamp.

I delight in de-gassifying the deluded condescensions of leftist blowhards like you.

And—my friend—as harsh and personal as this comment is toward you, there is not a bit of ad hominem anywhere in it.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Jenna's Bush — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:13:08 -0000

Charles Krauthammer intelligent?

LOL! That's a good one!

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

ottovbvs — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:23:42 -0000

Why can't idealogues like chasflemming debate a proposition without a load of personal abuse. Clearly in this guy's world all is well and the events of the past eight years never occurred. Clearly for the first time on record college grads didn't really vote for Democrats. Clearly for the first time ever the Democrats are not in firm control of the NE from ME to VA. Clearly Democrats don't have a nearly 2 to 1 advantage in the 18-29 demographic. Clearly the hispanic community has not departed the GOP in droves. Clearly a majority of the country is not pro choice even though referendums on this topic is three red states failed limit choice. Clearly the Dems don't have a party ID advantage greater than it's been for 35 years. Clearly when ignorance is bliss, wisdom is folly for chasflemming.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Charles Flemming — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:20:10 -0000

So you're equating blaming Chuck Schmuer and Goerge Soros with anti-semitism?

I guess that passes for intelligence in your neck of the liberal woods.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Joe Kristan — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:55:54 -0000

If you can't understand the way I put it, maybe Arnold Kling will make more sense to you:

"At dinner, I would rather discuss issues of philosophy and economics with liberals like Akerlof and Shiller than with non-libertarian conservatives. But the political arena is different. Think of it as a Thanksgiving meal. At the conservatives' table, I feel like an uninvited guest. At the liberals' table, I feel like the turkey."

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

trevortb — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:54:37 -0000

The only way you get to jump to that conclusion is if YOU, A Nony Mouse, equate religious faith with anti-evolution and global warming denialism - which I don't. There have been many studies that prove somewhat of a correlation, but I know plenty of religious folks who subscribe to Darwin.

I do however, equate creationism and global warming denialism with anti-intellectualism. I don't know if Will does.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Mark G — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:42:52 -0000

The late Pope John Paul II was many things, but calling him "anti-intellectual" suggests a idiosyncratic definition of that term.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Charles Flemming — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:29:23 -0000

Is this the best you can do, ottovbvs?

Where do you dig this stuff up?

A "set of policies and ideas that have been tried and failed"? When did this take place?

"Popular mores"? THIS is your concept of what "highly educated management/professional economic conservatives" care about?

What's hilarious is that you probably think you're intelligent and well-informed…

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

A Nony mouse — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:24:43 -0000

"Unless you equate religious faith with anti-intellectualism - and maybe you do . . . ."

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

ottovbvs — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:44:40 -0000

And if you want a snapshot of how far movement conservatives are from getting it, just do a surf of comments here.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

ottovbvs — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:40:54 -0000

The agonizing and dancing on a pinhead over this surely qualifies for an Olympic gold in the annals of navel gazing. The facts are oh so simple. The Republican coalition of social conservatives/nationalists/economic conservatives is collapsing under the weight of a set of policies and ideas that have been tried and have failed, or are totally out of tune with the popular mores of the times. This has caused the most "reality" based part of the coalition, the highly educated management/professional economic conservatives, to jump ship while at the same time energizing parts of the traditional Democratic coalition. The consequences in a nutshell is a GOP under the control of movement conservatives and the loss of most of the country outside the south and Mormon mountain states. Until the coalition is rebuilt the picture will remain basically unaltered, in fact it's going to drift even further in the democratic direction because of demography. The movement conservatives don't get this but it's going to take a long time so stand by for years more unproductive navel gazing like this.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Andrew — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:52:58 -0000

"superstitious fag-bashers"

Ah, yes, of course. Because, obvious contempt for religious liberty and democratic action concerning the definition of "marriage" is so self-evidently part of a libertarian or classically liberal philosophy, no Will? Thanks for reminding me why I'm so easily unimpressed with you every time the Corner (or at least Goldberg) keeps telling me how I just must read Will's reasonable thoughts on this or reasonable thoughts on that.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Maelin — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:43:53 -0000

Their IQ scores prove that they're smart. Or do you disdain such science, preferring instead things like street-smarts or common sense or the omnicient gut? If so, you fit right in with the increasingly-Palinized Right, and you are the reason intellectuals are fleeing your party like rats from a sinking ship.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Mark G — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:32:24 -0000

Steve -- Conversely, I am totally offended by your denigration of my part of American as a "backwater" ;)

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Charles Flemming — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:46:11 -0000

Mark: I'm with you.

Steve: You're the perfect picture of the leftist who labels himself a libertarian so he'll feel good about himself. Your cartoon image of the Republican Party tells us everything we need to know about you. Out of all the current emphases among conservative Republicans, why do you make anti-gay-marriage activism (which is actually pro-tradition-definition-of-marriage) your picture of the Republican Party? And " the constant signaling that backwaters are the 'real America'"? C'mon, dude, you know full well it's blowback against your effete, pseudo-intellectual snobbism. And what exactly is wrong with drawing from all our positive historical roots, including those of small-town America? Yes, there are ignorant bigots there. But there's a raft of 'em in the left blogosphere as well—and the libertarian. YOU're certainly no paragon of intellectual enlightenment or clear-eyed argumentation, no matter HOW much you delude yourself. (I especially love the part where you use the quintessential urban social liberal Republican as your poster boy for rustic Republican right-wingerism—ignoring the fact that Giuliani brought more positive change to the social fabric of New York City than Obama ever dreamed of doing for Chicago.)

I have more on this here:
http://chaspublic.wordpress...

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Steve C — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:40:57 -0000

Um, Will's characterization pretty much sums it up for me. Palin/Wurzelbacher populism, kissing Limbaugh's ass (real, national politicians - what's the left equivalent of this? oh, there's not one). Funding anti-gay-marriage state and federal constitutional amendments, the constant signaling that backwaters are the "real America".

I have in my mind a sea of old white people at the Republican convention laughing as Guiliani described Obama's community organizer days, the Republican rallies the last two weeks of the campaign, the angry white crowd booing during McCain's concession speech. This is the 2009 Republican party.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Greg N. — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:50:44 -0000

So when can we buy "A Hayekian Left" at Border's?

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

TGGP — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:19:26 -0000

Now, the focus should be more on the composition of spending.
Why should a libertarian care about that? It's not that we want the Bible or Das Kapital in schools, we're opposed to public education!

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Mark — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:17:12 -0000

If the author of this drivel is what passes for "young intellectual talent" these days, I think he's made a pretty strong case for the Republicans to keep on bleeding off this rabble. His characterization of the modern GOP as "a group of flag-waving moral reactionaries" and "a bunch of superstitious fag-bashers" is inaccurate, silly, and tired and I can only imagine that Mr. Wilkinson is either trying to get attention or that he hasn't taken his medication today. By all means, please join the Left and amplify the cacophony of rapid, unsophisticated, spiteful political analysis it embraces. We libertarian Republicans will be just fine without you.

Re: The Hope and Horror of Liberaltarian Alignments

Paul O'Pinion — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:16:35 -0000

Phillip,
Stick around!