Will Wilkinson - Latest Comments in The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Sanjay — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:41:51 -0000

It's "Painter of Light (tm)". And, God help me, my wife likes him.

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

bjk — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:59:37 -0000

We need to match the sacrifice of the greatest generation. Then we will satisfy Brooks. Only a few hundred thousand corpses to go.

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Arr-squared — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:00:14 -0000

"Sept. 11th really did leave a residue — an unconsummated desire for sacrifice and service."

If it's indeed an 'unconsummated desire,' does that mean that these idealistic young people are not actually sacrificing or doing service?

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

WylieD — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:08:53 -0000

Re: "The Kennedy Mystique"

David Brooks misspelled "Mistake".

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

melschacher — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:17:33 -0000

Trevor is right, at least in my anecdotal experience. Contrast the enthusiasm for Obama among today's college crowd with the resounding "meh" response to the Clinton vs Dole race among my peers in '96. I personally find it droll that these cute young kids think that politicians can actually affect their lives positively, but Will is correct that a decline in cynicism from Gen-X levels is like a decline in crazy from the Britney Spears level.

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

cliff — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:00:53 -0000

This line from Brooks:

'Sept. 11th really did leave a residue — an unconsummated desire for sacrifice and service.'

...applies equally well to the jihadis, does it not?

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Will Wilkinson — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:38:12 -0000

Trevor, Maybe. Data? If it's up from your generation, then that means it's up from mine, Gen X, not up from the Boomers. And I remember that 2000 Census study that showed Gen X was all into civic engagement, too.

And Brooks isn't talking about the level of involvement, but the style. The contrast is between chaotic gatherings of dirty hippies activists and orderly lines of nearly-identical young men with close-cropped hair and jackets and ties politely expressing their collective commitment to something "bigger" than themselves, preferably the interests of the local nation state.

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Trevor — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:19:30 -0000

I wouldn't want to get into defending Brooks as an author more generally, and I can see why the quoted passages rubbed you the wrong way, but isn't Brooks broadly right on the objective if not the normative question? My understanding is that indicators of civic involvement are up across the board for my generation. I don't think that it constitutes a denial of individual identity, but it's certainly happening, right?

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

William Newman — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:26:42 -0000

I have found your art analogies somewhat unconvincing...but I like analogies. I think the analogies might be stronger if you appealed not so much to things with good taste, and more to things that work.

There is proverbially an enormous amount of room to disagree about good taste. And even when I question tastes and goals, I tend to somewhat impressed by execution. E.g., I don't see *why* people want to make long open-water swims, but I can still be impressed. So setting aside questions of taste and color in your over-the-top art examples, I can still be impressed by their craftsmanship.

There's admittedly some room to sincerely disagree about what works. (And there's always unlimited room simply to disagree. E.g., speaking of being impressed by execution, it is no great feat to invoke China's economy as an example of Communism, but quoting Chinese economic growth figures to fractional percentage points so shortly after the recent revisions left me in flabbergasted awe.:-) But I think there's distinctly more agreement among reasonable people about what works than about what's tasteful.

So generally I think you could get broader and more heartfelt agreement by appealing to analogies like the battlefield failings of armies optimized for parades or ideology, or the limitations of big thinkers fondly imagining planning econonomies or software engineering processes down to the last interchangeable humanoid unit; or the realities of working aristocracies or spacecraft or plantations or armies vs. Hollywood or whitewashed fantasies.

(Of course, to the extent that there's overlap between what works and what's elegant and tasteful --- as argued off and on throughout history, recently by Paul Graham in "Taste for Makers" --- it's a poorly defined question which kind of analogy is more convincing.)

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

"Q" the Enchanter — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:02:52 -0000

I don't like your tone. Are you suggesting that Disneyland isn't the Happiest Place on Earth?

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Will Wilkinson — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:10:43 -0000

Clyde, Thanks. Fixed.

Kevin, I promise, I'll stop!

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

James — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:09:25 -0000

You're all into analogies lately.

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Clyde Adams III — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:11:04 -0000

His name is spelled "Kinkade."

Re: The Idealism of Jackets and Ties

Kevin B. O'Reilly — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:57:13 -0000

You know, Will, I dig your point here and I share your fondness for Rothko and disdain for Kinkaid but I'm just curious: Is this an art blog now?

Presumably, one can be an individualist and have bad taste!